We took enough s**t for everybody."
Vampire Weekend are a four-piece indie-pop outfit from New York based around the creative partnership of songwriter Ezra Koenig and producer/arranger Rostam Batmanglij. The band's exuberant music draws heavily from twee, college-rock, West African guitar-pop, and Paul Simon's legendary Graceland LP. Vampire Weekend's 2008 self-titled debut made them not merely one of the breakout bands of 2008, but one of the most blogged-about bands ever, subject to both hysterical hype and bilious backlash. In 2010, they released their second album,Contra, to great scrutiny.
Interview: 23 November 2009
Was Contra the difficult second album?
"No more difficult than the first one. We've always put a tremendous amount of pressure on ourselves, and if we're not happy with how a song is sounding, it can be very difficult to really whip it into shape. The fact that this was our second album didn't really change anything. Because, even when we were making the first album, and nobody really cared about us, we were still pulling our hair out about getting the vocals sounding right. It's all internal to us."
You really didn't feel the weight of expectations, this time?
"That didn't make me feel any more pressure, that mostly seemed like a positive. To get emails from kids saying 'I can't wait for your next album,' that almost makes you feel better about working on it, because you know there's going to be an audience for it."
Did you, in the beginning, have doubts that there would be an audience for Vampire Weekend?
"Well, we always had people that liked to come to our shows, even if they were mostly our friends. So, I always assumed we'd have some kind of audience. Did I think we'd have the success that we had? That we'd travel around the world at play at big festivals? No, I didn't think that."
How bizarre was it suddenly being on that upwards ride?
"It was very surreal in the beginning. Now we've gotten a bit more used to it, but playing to 40,000 people at Glastonbury is pretty crazy when you consider that we'd been playing almost the exact same set at a frat party to drunken college students a year-and-a-half earlier."
Were you surprised that your band, playing largely non-provocative pop-music, generated so much blog backlash and fiery debate?
"To a certain extent. I knew some of the things that we were doing and some of the things we were talking about would set some people off. Because, a lot of rock critics love to try and pretend that they're social activists when it comes to talking about background and class and wealth. And I knew that because those are things that I want to talk about, not every critic would understand that my lyrics are analytical, and some people would interpret it as some sort of lifestyle album about promoting wealth, when that's so far from the case. Every album we make will show a different side of the band, and maybe help people to understand us a little better, but the knee-jerk, angry people are gonna probably never give us a chance. But, I think about all the same issues that everybody thinks about. I think about what cultural appropriation means. I don't think our band does anything negative, but I know that there are people who just can't wait to take down a person whom they perceive to be some sort of privileged white whatever. That didn't surprise me; there's always people that want to be negative. What did surprise me were the assumptions that people would make without knowing anything about us, biographically."
What assumptions are you speaking about, specifically?
"People have made all sorts of assumptions. People have, in a very large way, assumed that we grew up privileged, simply because of the school that we went to. Never mind that I received a scholarship from my dad's labor union and am still in the midst of paying back loans; it doesn't matter to people. They hear you went to a good school, and they'll start talking about what your parents must do for a living, and how your daddy must pay for everything. That's not how school works in America, especially at a school like Columbia. It's diverse; they have a huge financial aid department. So, that's for one. And people also made assumptions about our family backgrounds. I've seen many times people describe our band as being WASPy. Nobody in our band is a WASP."
Batmanglij isn't an Anglo-Saxon surname?
"Exactly! Rostam's background is Persian; his parents are from Iran. My family is all Eastern European Jews; my grandma is from Romania. [Bassist Chris] Baio's family's Italian, and [drummer Chris] Tomson's family's Ukrainian. That's the American story: everybody has a varied background. Which makes it even more amazing that people will still make those assumptions based solely on seeing you dress a certain way, or use a certain word. From that, they like to imagine exactly who you are."
Talking recently to The Very Best and Fool's Gold, both claimed they'd encountered no negative reactions, no critiques that they're robbing African culture. Do you think Vampire Weekend were the frontline, and now the indie world has grown used to this idea of the global dialogue?
"Oh, totally. We took enough s**t for everybody. Who knows why it works out that way; perhaps it goes back to what we were talking about before, that people made assumptions that made them feel more validated in being blindly negative. The truth is, when I collaborated with The Very Best, the first time I met Esau [Mwamwaya], the singer, who grew up in Malawi, he had so many nice things to say about Vampire Weekend. And, one of the things that he said he liked about us was that some of the rhythms reminded him of the music he grew up listening to in Malawi. Clearly, he did not think of that as a negative thing. He didn't come to me and say 'I really think you guys have been ripping us off'; he knows that Vampire Weekend is doing its own thing, but he saw a cultural connection. Just like I see cultural connections in The Very Best to music that I grew up listening to. When you have experiences like that, it really makes the opinions of white middle-class critics seem even less valid."
Some of the Vampire Weekend critiques I read reminded me of those awful 'virtuous defender' movies, where the gracious white knight intervenes on behalf of the hopeless black people. The people attacking you were so blinded by their misplaced noble intentions that they didn't see how they were propagating this fascist ideology that musical influence should only ever go from the first world down to the third world, and never the other way back.
"You're totally right: it is a condescending idea that music needs protecting. The idea that African music needs to be protected and shielded by white American critics, let's say, is one of the most patronizing things you can possibly do. And these are the people who are trying to criticize our music as being culturally insensitive? People need to understand that to be inspired by music from around the world is a good thing. That's how music works! The African music I love tends to be more modern music with electric guitars. So, should people be getting angry that these Africans took this quintessentially American instrument, the electric guitar, and did their own thing with it? No! It's amazing that music works that way. And trying to raise red flags about musical appropriation is no substitute for real social activism. Love music, but use other parts of your life to educate yourself about the global political climate. That's what I try to do. And, I'm 25; hopefully it's something I'll get better at. But, in the meantime, I don't need to hear the opinions of these falsely-virtuous critics. Every experience I've had meeting African musicians has only reinforced that belief. So, on this album, certainly we have not shied away from referencing the music that we love; whether that's African music or classical music. None of our family backgrounds are rooted in Western European high society, but that doesn't stop us from loving French classical composers."
What ideas were central to Contra?
"The first idea I had was that this should be a kind of 'California album.' That was a vague idea, so we needed to figure out what that meant: 'What is it about it that resonates with me? Why do I think about it so much? What's the music from California that really matters to me? Is it The Eagles? Is it Dwight Yoakam? Or is it Operation Ivy?' I had to figure that out."
So what did you work out? Were you attracted to California as place, or as mythology?
"Both. What's so funny about California is that it's become this international brand that represents this exported American idea of what the good life is. You'll find apartment complexes in China that're called The Palm Springs Houses. Yet, California has all sorts of problems, too; at this stage the state is almost bankrupt. So, there's something inherently interesting about that contradiction in terms —of the myth and the reality— and it really helps you understand America. So, in 'California English,' there are a lot of subtle references to the idea of myths vs reality, to the idea of culture clashes. More generally, it's about my experiences in California and the things that stick out about it. In some ways, it's almost like my love-letter to California. Which goes against the prevailing cynical condescension that reigns in New York, in regards to LA. That's such a joke, to pretend that New York is so different, when clearly it's two sides of the same coin. But, sometimes people seem to think my lyrics are cryptic, and misread them accordingly, so we'll see if anybody else reads into them what I do."
Was it difficult wearing that misconception of Vampire Weekend as 'lifestyle music'?
"Not really, because it only came from those people who are looking for something to be angry about. For example, with 'Oxford Comma,' to me it's very obvious that it's about elitism, and dealing with someone who thinks they're better than you, and who tries to criticize you in bulls**t ways. I know it's not the most straight-forward song in the world, but to me it's pretty obvious that that's the tone of it. But some people would say that by even naming a song 'Oxford Comma,' all we're doing is reinforcing elitism, because, in theory, only the privileged classes know what an Oxford comma is. That, to me, is a classic example of how people misinterpret our songs. Some people just hear certain words and think: 'these guys must think they're so smart!' But, my family history has pointed to the idea that you don't have to be rich to be educated, to care about books, to know obscure words. Those are the kind of misperceptions we need to fight. And, on this album, it's not going to be as easy for people to do that."
So, you've toned down the polysyllabic words?
"Oh, no, I definitely haven't toned down the polysyllabic words! I love the sounds of words, and I'm certainly never going to change those because of what other people think. But, in terms of meaning, I think it'll be harder for people to hear this new album and pretend that our songs are about hanging out at the country club with our rich friends, or whatever ridiculous idea that people have tried to propagate. But, no —hell no!— I'll never give up my polysyllabic words."
Was it weird bearing the brunt of anti-intellectualist attacks given you're writing three-minute, singalong pop-songs?
"Yeah, it was. But it's so funny: there can be some cognitive dissonance, where you read one thing about how you're so elitist, and that your music is for over-educated Ivy League rich-kids, and then you go to the show and you have people of all different backgrounds and all different ages singing along to 'Oxford Comma' and 'Mansard Roof.' You start to realize that you can't make assumptions about your audience. Not everybody knows what a Mansard roof is, but that doesn't mean that song is only for architecture students. That's so condescending, to imagine that everybody needs a song to be broken down into their vernacular. I grew up listening to Wu-Tang Clan, and I didn't know what Shaolin meant the first time I heard it; I didn't know what most of the slang meant. But, that's part of what's so great about learning other people's lyrics: it's like learning another language. To me, that's what being a music fan is all about."
Vampire Weekend are a four-piece indie-pop outfit from New York based around the creative partnership of songwriter Ezra Koenig and producer/arranger Rostam Batmanglij. The band's exuberant music draws heavily from twee, college-rock, West African guitar-pop, and Paul Simon's legendary Graceland LP. Vampire Weekend's 2008 self-titled debut made them not merely one of the breakout bands of 2008, but one of the most blogged-about bands ever, subject to both hysterical hype and bilious backlash. In 2010, they released their second album,Contra, to great scrutiny.
Interview: 23 November 2009
Was Contra the difficult second album?
"No more difficult than the first one. We've always put a tremendous amount of pressure on ourselves, and if we're not happy with how a song is sounding, it can be very difficult to really whip it into shape. The fact that this was our second album didn't really change anything. Because, even when we were making the first album, and nobody really cared about us, we were still pulling our hair out about getting the vocals sounding right. It's all internal to us."
You really didn't feel the weight of expectations, this time?
"That didn't make me feel any more pressure, that mostly seemed like a positive. To get emails from kids saying 'I can't wait for your next album,' that almost makes you feel better about working on it, because you know there's going to be an audience for it."
Did you, in the beginning, have doubts that there would be an audience for Vampire Weekend?
"Well, we always had people that liked to come to our shows, even if they were mostly our friends. So, I always assumed we'd have some kind of audience. Did I think we'd have the success that we had? That we'd travel around the world at play at big festivals? No, I didn't think that."
How bizarre was it suddenly being on that upwards ride?
"It was very surreal in the beginning. Now we've gotten a bit more used to it, but playing to 40,000 people at Glastonbury is pretty crazy when you consider that we'd been playing almost the exact same set at a frat party to drunken college students a year-and-a-half earlier."
Were you surprised that your band, playing largely non-provocative pop-music, generated so much blog backlash and fiery debate?
"To a certain extent. I knew some of the things that we were doing and some of the things we were talking about would set some people off. Because, a lot of rock critics love to try and pretend that they're social activists when it comes to talking about background and class and wealth. And I knew that because those are things that I want to talk about, not every critic would understand that my lyrics are analytical, and some people would interpret it as some sort of lifestyle album about promoting wealth, when that's so far from the case. Every album we make will show a different side of the band, and maybe help people to understand us a little better, but the knee-jerk, angry people are gonna probably never give us a chance. But, I think about all the same issues that everybody thinks about. I think about what cultural appropriation means. I don't think our band does anything negative, but I know that there are people who just can't wait to take down a person whom they perceive to be some sort of privileged white whatever. That didn't surprise me; there's always people that want to be negative. What did surprise me were the assumptions that people would make without knowing anything about us, biographically."
What assumptions are you speaking about, specifically?
"People have made all sorts of assumptions. People have, in a very large way, assumed that we grew up privileged, simply because of the school that we went to. Never mind that I received a scholarship from my dad's labor union and am still in the midst of paying back loans; it doesn't matter to people. They hear you went to a good school, and they'll start talking about what your parents must do for a living, and how your daddy must pay for everything. That's not how school works in America, especially at a school like Columbia. It's diverse; they have a huge financial aid department. So, that's for one. And people also made assumptions about our family backgrounds. I've seen many times people describe our band as being WASPy. Nobody in our band is a WASP."
Batmanglij isn't an Anglo-Saxon surname?
"Exactly! Rostam's background is Persian; his parents are from Iran. My family is all Eastern European Jews; my grandma is from Romania. [Bassist Chris] Baio's family's Italian, and [drummer Chris] Tomson's family's Ukrainian. That's the American story: everybody has a varied background. Which makes it even more amazing that people will still make those assumptions based solely on seeing you dress a certain way, or use a certain word. From that, they like to imagine exactly who you are."
Talking recently to The Very Best and Fool's Gold, both claimed they'd encountered no negative reactions, no critiques that they're robbing African culture. Do you think Vampire Weekend were the frontline, and now the indie world has grown used to this idea of the global dialogue?
"Oh, totally. We took enough s**t for everybody. Who knows why it works out that way; perhaps it goes back to what we were talking about before, that people made assumptions that made them feel more validated in being blindly negative. The truth is, when I collaborated with The Very Best, the first time I met Esau [Mwamwaya], the singer, who grew up in Malawi, he had so many nice things to say about Vampire Weekend. And, one of the things that he said he liked about us was that some of the rhythms reminded him of the music he grew up listening to in Malawi. Clearly, he did not think of that as a negative thing. He didn't come to me and say 'I really think you guys have been ripping us off'; he knows that Vampire Weekend is doing its own thing, but he saw a cultural connection. Just like I see cultural connections in The Very Best to music that I grew up listening to. When you have experiences like that, it really makes the opinions of white middle-class critics seem even less valid."
Some of the Vampire Weekend critiques I read reminded me of those awful 'virtuous defender' movies, where the gracious white knight intervenes on behalf of the hopeless black people. The people attacking you were so blinded by their misplaced noble intentions that they didn't see how they were propagating this fascist ideology that musical influence should only ever go from the first world down to the third world, and never the other way back.
"You're totally right: it is a condescending idea that music needs protecting. The idea that African music needs to be protected and shielded by white American critics, let's say, is one of the most patronizing things you can possibly do. And these are the people who are trying to criticize our music as being culturally insensitive? People need to understand that to be inspired by music from around the world is a good thing. That's how music works! The African music I love tends to be more modern music with electric guitars. So, should people be getting angry that these Africans took this quintessentially American instrument, the electric guitar, and did their own thing with it? No! It's amazing that music works that way. And trying to raise red flags about musical appropriation is no substitute for real social activism. Love music, but use other parts of your life to educate yourself about the global political climate. That's what I try to do. And, I'm 25; hopefully it's something I'll get better at. But, in the meantime, I don't need to hear the opinions of these falsely-virtuous critics. Every experience I've had meeting African musicians has only reinforced that belief. So, on this album, certainly we have not shied away from referencing the music that we love; whether that's African music or classical music. None of our family backgrounds are rooted in Western European high society, but that doesn't stop us from loving French classical composers."
What ideas were central to Contra?
"The first idea I had was that this should be a kind of 'California album.' That was a vague idea, so we needed to figure out what that meant: 'What is it about it that resonates with me? Why do I think about it so much? What's the music from California that really matters to me? Is it The Eagles? Is it Dwight Yoakam? Or is it Operation Ivy?' I had to figure that out."
So what did you work out? Were you attracted to California as place, or as mythology?
"Both. What's so funny about California is that it's become this international brand that represents this exported American idea of what the good life is. You'll find apartment complexes in China that're called The Palm Springs Houses. Yet, California has all sorts of problems, too; at this stage the state is almost bankrupt. So, there's something inherently interesting about that contradiction in terms —of the myth and the reality— and it really helps you understand America. So, in 'California English,' there are a lot of subtle references to the idea of myths vs reality, to the idea of culture clashes. More generally, it's about my experiences in California and the things that stick out about it. In some ways, it's almost like my love-letter to California. Which goes against the prevailing cynical condescension that reigns in New York, in regards to LA. That's such a joke, to pretend that New York is so different, when clearly it's two sides of the same coin. But, sometimes people seem to think my lyrics are cryptic, and misread them accordingly, so we'll see if anybody else reads into them what I do."
Was it difficult wearing that misconception of Vampire Weekend as 'lifestyle music'?
"Not really, because it only came from those people who are looking for something to be angry about. For example, with 'Oxford Comma,' to me it's very obvious that it's about elitism, and dealing with someone who thinks they're better than you, and who tries to criticize you in bulls**t ways. I know it's not the most straight-forward song in the world, but to me it's pretty obvious that that's the tone of it. But some people would say that by even naming a song 'Oxford Comma,' all we're doing is reinforcing elitism, because, in theory, only the privileged classes know what an Oxford comma is. That, to me, is a classic example of how people misinterpret our songs. Some people just hear certain words and think: 'these guys must think they're so smart!' But, my family history has pointed to the idea that you don't have to be rich to be educated, to care about books, to know obscure words. Those are the kind of misperceptions we need to fight. And, on this album, it's not going to be as easy for people to do that."
So, you've toned down the polysyllabic words?
"Oh, no, I definitely haven't toned down the polysyllabic words! I love the sounds of words, and I'm certainly never going to change those because of what other people think. But, in terms of meaning, I think it'll be harder for people to hear this new album and pretend that our songs are about hanging out at the country club with our rich friends, or whatever ridiculous idea that people have tried to propagate. But, no —hell no!— I'll never give up my polysyllabic words."
Was it weird bearing the brunt of anti-intellectualist attacks given you're writing three-minute, singalong pop-songs?
"Yeah, it was. But it's so funny: there can be some cognitive dissonance, where you read one thing about how you're so elitist, and that your music is for over-educated Ivy League rich-kids, and then you go to the show and you have people of all different backgrounds and all different ages singing along to 'Oxford Comma' and 'Mansard Roof.' You start to realize that you can't make assumptions about your audience. Not everybody knows what a Mansard roof is, but that doesn't mean that song is only for architecture students. That's so condescending, to imagine that everybody needs a song to be broken down into their vernacular. I grew up listening to Wu-Tang Clan, and I didn't know what Shaolin meant the first time I heard it; I didn't know what most of the slang meant. But, that's part of what's so great about learning other people's lyrics: it's like learning another language. To me, that's what being a music fan is all about."
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